my throat is burning from tomato nothing. does that make sense?
how many brothers and sisters do you have?
I'm the oldest of seven kids: two sisters and four brothers.
We're your typical mormon mafia family. We even have a van...
that's a whole lotta family goin on.
yup, and two other siblings (brother and sister) are openly gay... we're a queer bunch for a conservative state like utah
so how do they like the queer mormon life? how does your family feel about it? and what happened to you all in your childhood that made you all deviants?
well, without getting into any theorizing on my part as to what "causes" homosexuality, I'll just answer your question:
My sister was molested once by a neighbor, and my brother was also, by one of my aunt Domonie's ex husbands. This happened when they were quite young, but I sincerely doubt that that "causes" homosexuality at all.
My parents are praying very hard that they will "come back", but they still love my brother and sister. I've been very open with my parents, and I've explained to them about where I'm at as well, and they've been very supportive. But I think they're beginning to lose hope. I don't know.
My youngest sister, Emma (I only have two) was quite disappointed as well when she learned of Sarah and Matthew, but she's taken it all in stride. Although, I think she might be worried that "it" will happen to her as well.
Needless to say, it's been a difficult time for my family to adjust, and I don't think my parents will ever be completely at ease about the situation at all. I can't blame them. They believe very strongly in the church and in the possibility of change. Mainly because my father has been quite successful at living a happy life with my mother, despite the attractions that he's had as well.
So, I've been in a very subjective point of view about homosexuality, and I've often thought about writing a book about my impressions and experiences about what homosexuality is... but then I see just how little I really know.
so your dad has had leanings towards males as well. wow.....but he supressed it all?
it's good that you guys can all be very open with each other. it's just a different world to me where religion governs things like that. i couldn't possibly begin to understand it, so i guess i just have to respect it and go with that.
i don't think anything really "causes" homosexuality either. i do think that it's a mix of psychological and environmental factors though. not really one or the other and some people or more predisposed to being so. or so being because they are born as such.
yup... "I see," said the blind man to his deaf dog, as his mute parrot screamed, "look out for the stairs!"
but my father didn't always repress it. that's exactly what got him in trouble with the church so many years ago. however, he's done counseling, and group therapy, and many things, and overall I believe that his success in this has been mainly due to the support of my mom.
and I completely agree that it is a mixture of both spiritual, psychological, physiological, emotional and other such factors that will bring out latent tendencies.
i think it's weird (not weird in a serial killer way. weird in a "oh, huh. well, i'll be" way)that your dad was gay(-ish) and is not gay(-ish) anymore. can you counsel that out of someone?
well, i guess it's like i said before about the whole you can be a different kind of fulfilled and happy with someone and kids and all that traditional stuff. so yeah.
The tendencies or the temptations will never leave... they're for life. However, my father has remained committed to the ideals that are most important to him, so it makes the decision easy(er) when the inclings come.
The counseling was for a greater understanding of who he is, and what he's capable of doing/being if he's committed to it.
i think it's cool that your dad is happy and that he's done well and everything.
i'm just uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality being a choice.
we have the ability to choose our responses. we're not machines. read "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl, and you'll understand more of what I mean.
well we can choose to act on things or not to. but we can't choose who we are. we shouldn't have to. i shouldn't be made to feel guilty for who i am or how i feel.
This is where I get to quote Eleanor Roosevelt, "No one can make you feel inferior without your permission." Basically, it's entirely up to us to choose our own experience in this life. No matter how deep-seated some of our psychological or physiological processes are, we do have a choice. If it were not so, we'd be nothing more than lowly animals. I tend to believe that we have a greater potential than a life equated with grazing in pastures and mating with random heifers.
And if we can't choose who we are, then who does, and what are we? Nothing more than subjugated puppets to the "powers that be". Quite frankly, that sounds like a prison sentence to me. Maybe it's a bit of pride on my part, but I hold to the belief that we are far more powerful and brilliant than mindless conglomerations of molecules set out to follow a genetically predestined way of being. On whatever degree in the spectrum.
i'm surprised that for someone in such an involved type religion you don't attribute any of who you are to god. and i guess in a way i do. among other things.
all i'm saying is. we are who we are. you can't fight it. you CAN choose to ignore it. but you're ignoring it. it doesn't change who you are. it just makes you a liar. well, that's harsh. but if you feel a certain way and you deny yourself that thing. sure, you've made a choice. you've gone against whatever (i am not at all going to attribute any of this to the "powers that be" because they don't want us to be queer as it is), but that's all. you've just chosen to ignore it. it's still there. the choice is not whether it's there or not. it's whether to admit it or not.
Oh I've admitted it. I'm clear about it. In no unclear terms, my penis gets hard whenever I see a naked man, but nothing really happens with a woman. So I'm quite aware of it. There's no denial. But why should I let my libido decide my life for me? I tend to fall in love with women... they have my heart. But men have my attractions. Why? Why is that?
Well, I certainly have attributed it to God. In fact that's partially why I've become so bitter in my relationship with Him, is because I feel that it's all just a cruel joke. A kid with a magnifying glass frying ants. He gives me these desires, which are some of the strongest feelings that any human could experience, and then he tells me, "you can't touch it... don't use it... don't do it." And I've already made promises not to! But if I did, the an eternal punishment would ensue. It must be pretty funny from His point of view.
So what do I do? Continue hating God for this, and then intentionally doing the very thing that he doesn't want me to? A kind of metaphysical rebellion? Well that sounds like the very thing that a certain "Satan" would want me to do, right? Oh sure, I could find other religions to fill the gap, but then there'd always be something missing for me.
Or how about this... continue living life as if everything was normal, never tell my girlfriend, marry her, have kids, and then during a moment of extreme weakness due to whatever mid-life crisis is going on in my life, give in and commit an act that is counter to everything that I've stood for, betraying the trust of my wife and whomever is a part of my life.
Or what about this... I experiment. I slowly let it slip into my life, and then in a teary, doe-eyed look I can say to God, "I didn't mean to..." Think He'd buy it?
Or as you say, I could ignore it. I block it out of my consciousness completely and just keep living my life out until I either snap and go into a barrage of promiscuous behavior, or by some miracle I actually get through the entirety of my life, and die with my secret.
Some take the easy way out... they kill themselves. But that's not an option. A non-issue.
But what about the possibility of being completely open and honest about it? I'd be fully aware of my attractions, and I know how I work in that regard; I'd know what "gets me going" and I would choose to avoid it. But I'd not be in this alone... I'd be most likely married to a woman who'd know fully well about this issue; my weaknesses and strengths, and be supportive along the whole way. She'd even be patient and loving enough to take the time necessary to "make things work" in the bedroom. Now, if my kids ever began to show "signs" at an early age, I would never let it affect the level of love or care that I continue to offer my children. However, I would teach them what I've learned and allow them the space to make their own decisions, and still lovingly support them as my children... come what may.
But you're right... if I didn't admit what was honestly going on for me, I'd be a liar. That's why I've been searching within myself over these past few years; because I've come to know that I don't know what's really going on inside me! I'm on the verge of an enormous breakthrough in my life, and I would be a liar if I was to just jump into straight marriage, or into my first homosexual encounter simply because I happen to have a hardon whenever I see steamy pictures of some nameless, beefy model in a porn shot.
you are the way you are because you are Andy Warhol. i guess i just can't fully wrap my mind around where you're coming from. not in the least. i've never done the strict religion thing in a strict way. i have this relationship with god. we have this understanding. i don't think he hates me or cares much about ass sex. we have a don't ask don't tell sort of policy. in any case, i don't believe in the after life as being heaven or hell either and i suppose that helps. i also don't really believe in satan really, which helps a helluva lot. maybe that's why it took me so long to realize that i was what i was, whether i was repressing it or not. maybe i just really had to get all of my beliefs aligned before i woke up to anything to keep from being so confused. maybe i did it on purpose in my sleep. i don't know. my attraction to men is not strictly based on their genitalia though. there is just a differentconnection than there is with a woman and i don't think i can be me and be with a woman at the same time anymore. guy-girl relationships make me a little bit of someone else i think. i don't know. this sort of thing is very confusing. in general. and things canbe tough. i suppose. for you especially tough. i'm sure everything will work out alright for you though.
I certainly hope it will. I have every intention of my life working out for me, despite the tough times. I only hope that I'll still have friends.
well, either way you go you'll find some sort of happiness i'm sure.
for the record, i am not a tool of satan. thank you.
hey, are you like not allowed to masturbate?
"hey, are you like not allowed to masturbate?"
heh... not officially...
I never said that you were a tool of satan... I'm saying that he influences to do what God doesn't want us to.
so you try really hard not to fiddle with your penis?
even though you consider me a tool of satan, i'm really glad you're not homophobic because a lot of guys in your position would turn that direction instead of in the confusing direction you've chosen.
I don't try to not fiddle with my fiddlestick... it's almost a nightly ordeal.
Confusing, yes... homophobic, certainly not... lonely and open to both gender options while sorting out this mess, right on.
i cannot CHOOSE to be straight. i don't even know how to be with a girl anymore. i know i could fake it if i tried. i could even find happiness in that in some ways, but i would never feel completely fulfilled at all. i wouldn't feel myself at all. and it's not a choice i made. it's where i found myself. i had repressed it for a long time and over the course of about a year i woke up to it. there it was. big as day. i couldn't turn away from it. i couldn't/ can't ignore it. and i can't go back now that i'm here. i wouldn't even know where to begin. for me to choose to go against that would be completely unnatural and who would i be doing it for? ME? how is that helping me?
Disclaimer: I hope we're maintaining an emotional separatism as we debate this issue...
But my question is, since when does our fulfillment depend upon expressing emotional/sexual feelings with someone of the opposite or even same sex? For that matter, since when does fulfillment come from anything outside of ourselves?
If I'm accurate, I could sum up your entire arguement based on this single idea: "To deny our own impulses, is to deny that which makes us human..." Right? If that's so, then here's the major flaw; we've all had moments in our deepest caverns of depression where we were suicidal... an impulse to off ourselves. Or when intoxicated with a raging anger that won't subside, homicidal thoughts creep in and you barely contain yourself. Or the temptaion to steal something when you really, REALLY want that certain "thing", but you have no money, and no one would see. What is it that stops us from following through?
The most important thing that I've learned in the last few years is a concept that so few truly "get"... I am not what I do! My behavior does not equal David! My abilities do not equal me! That's why choice is called an absolute power.
Now if you've weighed the options... the cost of living one life versus another, carefully annotated in your mind the "expenses" of one choice versus another, and have made your choice based upon what will ultimately be best for you, and you are absolutely clear that you choose the one over the other purely out of what is going to produce the best results for you - perhaps not on the short-term, but you feel it would be for the overall good - then how could you ever feel bad about making such a decision? Only if your decision was tainted by the influence of others, and you weren't clear that it was really YOU deciding... then it would be contrary to who you are. You'd be selling out. But to make a moral decision which includes the following context; if you do "A", then the inevitable consequences shall follow, and you do not wish those consequences to come about, then it's still a valid choice, whether you like the choice having to be made or not.
Here's my summation: In my belief, God has already established a system of ground rules to follow. When I was baptized I had given my word that I would follow them, and if I didn't, then the consequences would follow. But since I also happen to have an attraction towards men, and have a stronger physiological response to sexual stimuli from men, this presents a paradox... a moral dilemma. Do I do what seems "natural" or do I value my honor enough to keep my word no matter what. Either way I'd have an inevitable hole in my life. And if it came down to an eternal ultimatum of sorts; choose to value my word and follow God, or choose to abandon everything that I've stood for for so long, just so I can have a fleeting release of sexual tension with another man, It'd be by far one of the most difficult decisions I'd ever have to make. And doesn't that posision deserve a little support?
I know this is long... and I'm sorry, but I've really hit something here.
What really irks me is when there are members of the gay community who've known fully well about my position, and have refused to support me in making a decision to live a straight lifestyle. They say that I'd be wasting my time and energy and so forth. It goes on and on. Initially they talk about being helpful and supportive to ANY of those who're questioning their sexuality, but if someone comes to nearing or even making the decision that they will remain straight, that person's support vanishes quicker than any metaphor could illustrate. It's that kind of heartless, biased "support" that makes things so hurtful, similar to when straight conservative parents hear their son/daughter is deciding the gay lifestyle, all support ususally seems to vanish the same way. Not always, but far too often.
What I'm saying is, whether or not it seems to be the "natural" way or the "best" way... why can't we just support each other in such a complex and emotionally charged issue, instead of disappearing the moment someone decides to live in a way that is (at least cosmetically) counter to what we believe to be best?
Now if you've weighed the options... the cost of living one life versus another, carefully annotated in your mind the "expenses" of one choice versus another, and have made your choice based upon what will ultimately be best for you, and you are absolutely clear that you choose the one over the other purely out of what is going to produce the best results for you - perhaps not on the short-term, but you feel it would be for the overall good - then how could you ever feel bad about making such a decision?
i see how that works i suppose. i do. but i believe that thingsjust happen and they all happen for a reason. i don't question things that happen. i don't question feelings. and i don't plan for things like this. i think that you are who you are. you can't choose who you are. you can change certain aspects about yourself. do some fine tuning, but ultimately you are who you are.
also, you are not what you do. that's true. but who you are is going to decide what you do, is it not? the two are related. if you are a thief, then you'll steal. if you're a gay, you'll have sex with another gay. it happens. your actions are a part of you. because who you are is what motivates your actions.
i also don't understand why god would give someone feelings if they weren't meant to be felt. (have you seen saved! yet?) i just don't think god would have done that to me. i would hope not. i'm gonna have to go call him now.
you know, other people's sexuality really is there business and it doesn't matter whose screwing who or what in a friendship whatever thing. i just don't understand how people can choose to be this or that because i believe that people just are what they are. you're particular situation (and that of many others) is different because of a blief system you have in place that i can respect, but not ever fully understand.